Excessive Hunger?

[BrunosMom]

I have used this message board since my 12 year old Bichon was first diagnosed with diabetes and I appreciate all the information.
When Bruno was first diagnosed my vet and I tried a dehydrated Orijens raw diet and supplements. She told me to log his amount of water, which I did.
He was doing fine without the shots till he went into Ketoacidosis and was hospitalized for 3 (long) days. He came out of it and I have been struggling with the shots ever since. He is very aggressive, growls, and yelps. I've looked at hours of videos.
My foremost concern is his strong appetite. He's alright in the mornings but in the afternoons and close to dinner time he has cried for food. (he licks his lips to tell me when he's hungry) And after dinner he wants more! My vet said to feed him anytime he's hungry but wait till the 12 hour feeding for the shot. I'm leary of this from what I've read online his food intake should be more controlled. Should I try to look for another vet? Or is this ok? It doesn't seem right.
I really like her and she has been there for me when I needed help with the shots, etc.
Oh...she has me feeding him Royal Canin Glycobalance since being out of the hospital (10 days ago). I've always been an avid label reader and I don't like those ingredients at all.
Any and all advice is welcome whether it be for the injections and/or especially the strong appetite.
Thanks in advance!

[Scooterspal]

Re: Strong Appetite/Shots Advice

A dog will eat as long as there is food in front of him.

Unless you control his diet you will never succeed at regulation. Getting a handle on food intake is key to diabetes management for pets and people. Even feeding a few extra treats can throw off the entire day or nights regulation.

You need to set a feeding schedule with the same amount of food each meal and stick to it... crying or no crying. He will get used to it and eventually go lie down.

You're the "master", not the other way around. He needs to learn that.

[Raysaint]

Re: Strong Appetite/Shots Advice

I agree with scooterspal that meals should be consistent in the amount and timing.
There are treats that have no real carb content, like chicken breast, that might satisfy his between meal hunger, without raising his blood sugar.

[jesse girl]

Re: Strong Appetite/Shots Advice

Jesse habits completely changed after she acquired the disease . Before, she was a free feeder and never ate a full meal in one sitting . She would eat and if you let her she probably would eat until she would explode . She searches it out while we walk . She will beg for a treat but she is mannered and doesnt get into a garbage can or crawl up on you to gain access to what your eating .

I dont know what happened . Maybe psychological from the experience as the body was starving before treatment . She did have pancreatitis maybe the pancreas just doesnt work as well after and the feeling of being hungry maybe biological

We here allot of this on the forum. It maybe even associated with the aggression you are seeing with shots as personality changes . There is a mental change that may occur . Sometimes after we dont have the same dog that we began with .

I can understand your vet giving into you and let you feed out of the prescribed time . We can be persuasive when we feel are dogs are in need . You could be making it worse if regulation is obstructed without following the protocols for better regulation with a stricter routine . Higher sugar can create more hunger medically so it possible you could be making it worse

There is no easy answer. Shots need to be given for a dog to survive with the disease . Some have had to muzzle there dogs for short periods while giving shots . None were permanent i believe The stress from us does transfer to our dogs so finding a calmer place does help . Usually things improve over time when everyone gets use to the new reality and routine of the disease

[BrunosMom]

Re: Strong Appetite/Shots Advice

I have been giving in to my vet, not the other way around. I felt he shouldn't be eating all he wants in between scheduled meals, but she said to feed him. This was one of my major concerns with her--should I find another vet?

And the shots...I have tried muzzle, cone, and both. My vet showed me to wrap him up with a towel and anchor his head in sort of a headlock. I have to muzzle him for that also. This has been tough and a few times I've had to call my neighbor to help or run him to the vet for help.

Thanks!

[Judi]

Re: Strong Appetite/Shots Advice

my dog's vet and her vet/eye doctor who have seen a LOT of diabetic dogs are adamant about no food between shots. Otherwise how do you regulate?

It is really really hard in the beginning when they are hungry but it gets better

We had about a week of needing to muzzle my Jenny for her shot. She nipped at my husband and she was a sweetheart. Eventually she realized that she was getting the shot and we didn't have to muzzle her anymore.
We did buy some duck jerky treats that she only got after her shot.

bribery usually worked with her.

I would consider a new vet and just tell your vet why.

my original vet didn't want to deal with cushings and diabetes so we wound up with 1 vet for the cushings/diabetes, our regular vet for everything else, and we consulted a specialist. Then our original vet sold his practice.

After one bout with pancreatitis I had 3 vets call me at home to see how my girl was doing. I felt very fortunate that she had such caring people looking after her and we were just up front and honest when dealing with them and what we wanted from them

[LizE]

Re: Strong Appetite/Shots Advice

My vet said to feed him anytime he's hungry but wait till the 12 hour feeding for the shot.
Thanks in advance!

Are you sure your vet meant that you should feed him anytime forever, not just until the initial recovery phase is over?

After my dog was diagnosed she was very sick. While she was first recovering the vet wanted her to eat whenever we could get her to. But it wasn't a long term arrangement.

There is a lot of information thrown at you right now and I would clarify the vet's remarks.

I'm also confused that is sounds like the vet was initially trying to treat the diabetes through diet and no shots, hence the ketoacidosis. If this is true then I would get a new vet as canine diabetes is like type I diabetes in humans and cannot be cured with diet.

As for having a stubborn dog who doesn't like his new reality - Structure, Order and Discipline are your new best friends. Eventually the dog will accept the new routine and it will get easier.

[BrunosMom]

Excessive Hunger?

I've started giving my diabetic dog insulin shots after being in the hospital 3 days with ketoacidosis. He has also been diagnosed with Cushings and the vet wants to get the levels under control before addressing the Cushings.

Problem: Mornings are ok but before and after dinner time he has a voracious appetite. He cries and barks at me for food (never did this before). My vet said let him eat if he's hungry, but as I understand it he should be on a consistent feeding schedule. I've read articles from Vets that say Diabetic dogs should get a snack mid-day and a snack before bedtime to aid with levels. Could the Cushings be causing the excessive hunger? I don't know what to do. Very confused.

[jesse girl]

Re: Excessive Hunger?

Hi and welcome

The hunger is quite common but feeding all the time wont help regulation and it probably wont help with hunger as the higher sugar doesnt let food to be metabolized from the body very well

It is better to have a dog thats hungry than one that wont eat . Not allot you can do . My jesse eating habits changed after being diagnosed with diabetes being a dainty eating girl to a vacuum cleaner and that was 8 years ago

I would recommend signing up on our sister site k9 cushings and talk to them over there. its not unusual to get a false positive for cushings with an unregulated diabetic dog

[BrunosMom]

Re: Excessive Hunger?

Thanks Jesse.
We had to up Bruno's units from 5 to 7 (started out at 2 when he left the hospital). The vet is sure he has Cushings and instead of putting him through the expensive tests, we are concentrating on getting glucose level.
She said the excessive hunger is from the Cushing's and if he is real demanding go ahead and give him a little bit of the Royal Canin (canned) that she has him on. I hate the ingredients, but she says this works the best to regulate his numbers.
She has me testing his urine 4 hours after his shot with Keto-Diastix. So far so good since uping to 7.
Thanks again, my friend has ordered me herbs targeted for Cushing's in lieu of starting Rx meds.--which btw, I checked out and side effects are terrible.

[jesse girl]

Re: Excessive Hunger?

I would also agree to work on regulation before treating cushings

Now the problem with a cushings dog as far as regulation is you may see insulin resistance . Which means it may take a very large dose of insulin for blood sugar to lower . If you dont see this during the regulation process than your dog may not have cushings

On the other side if you are seeing insulin resistance from possible cushings and your vet decides to treat the cushings the medication may lower the need for injected insulin and it maybe dramatic and could put a dog at risk to low sugar Just something to be aware of if you do start cushings meds and may need to lower the dose

Now most here on the forum do test blood sugar at home and with a diagnosis of another disease and possible treatment it maybe beneficial in your situation keeping you dog safe and helping with the regulation process

[Judi]

Re: Excessive Hunger?

I’ll tell you we never saw much movement in my dog’s blood sugar till we started the cushings meds. It is horrifying to read about and tricky to deal with both diseases but you may wind up having to do both. What we’ve seen around here is about 4 weeks on the cushings meds the cortisol starts going down so you need to reduce the insulin. My 8 pound dog was on 7 units twice a day when we started the cushings treatment. She wound up needing 3.5 units after things settled down

I haven’t gone back on your thread but have you seen a specialist? I resisted doing that because they were so far away and really wished I’d done it sooner.

It is a delicate balance with both diseases and things can change quickly but my dog handled it for 3 and a half years. This forum and the cushings forum helped me a lot and saved her life more than once. Hang in there but be prepared to move forward with the cushings meds. The insatiable hunger is so hard to watch

[amydunn19]

Re: Excessive Hunger?

A word of caution about herbs. Sometimes, they have an adverse effect on diabetes and may cause some problems with regulation. Everything you put in their body has potential to affect blood sugar. You might want to go with basics to start with.

[k9diabetes]

Re: Excessive Hunger?

Does your dog have numerous physical symptoms of Cushing's disease? A Cushing's diagnosis is always suspect in an unregulated diabetic unless the body is classic Cushing's dog.

And not immediately treating the diabetes with insulin is a big red flag to me also... I think this veterinarian has not offered great advice so I wouldn't jump to a Cushing's diagnosis either.

Consider this article, if you haven't seen it already:

http://endocrinevet.blogspot.com/201...e-in-dogs.html

http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7134

The medicines are strong and have potential side effects so I don't like to see them given without a firm diagnosis.

But when they are needed, they are lifesaving wonders well worth the risk.

Elevated liver enzymes do not equal Cushing's disease so I am really concerned about this potentially being an inaccurate diagnosis.

Natalie

[BrunosMom]

Re: Excessive Hunger?

Thanks all. Just came back to see some wonderful people have posted some good information.
Bruno has been staying stable with 7 units. I have been monitoring with Keto-diastix, which I know isn't the best for accuracy but they have been looking excellent. So has he. I picked up some probiotics from the vet today and she felt he was doing well also.
His stools have been inconsistent...they start off solid then progress to runny. So I'm hoping the probiotics help. He's only eating the prescribed Royal Canin Glucobalance (which I hate the ingredients) and some boiled chicken breast as bribes for shots.

Thanks again...still need to explore the Cushings forum some more.