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**bgdavis** · 02-14-2011, 09:14 AM

Re: Dog Fight

Almost all dogs will fight at some point. I took my two Eskies to visit my sister in Florida. We have done this several times in the past. She has two big 'hounds', both female. They got along great for the first three days and then the two girls decided to 'jump on' one of my boys.

The most aggressive of her dogs thought she was getting the best of Sugar and kept biting at his neck. Little did she realize that all she got was a mouth full of hair! He bit back at her tangling ears and drew blood.

The next day, it happened again. So my sister's dog ended up with matching holes through both ears. I told my BIL to buy her diamond studs.

The dogs never fought when alone. Only when one was getting attention from somebody. It's like a jealousy thing between Sugar and BP. Then the other two feel obligated to run to the aid of their 'brother' or 'sister'.

Bonnie and Angel Criss

**CarolW** · 02-14-2011, 10:43 AM

Re: Dog Fight

Indeed, you're wise to keep the dogs separated. Many dog-fights are mere scuffles, and neither dog gets anything more than a nick or two. But a hole, meaning Newman sank his teeth (or tooth) is rather serious, indicating a problem that needs to be prevented.

Probably, you'll need to keep them separated always, I'm sorry to say.

I kind of wonder if Newman is jealous of the extensive attention Pip gets because of the diabetes.

One thing you can do is to look around the Internet for assistance in managing the two dogs. For instance, I'd suggest this Yahoo group:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Pos-4-ReactiveDogs/

It's among the best of the groups dealing with dogs who "over-react."

Uses only positive methods of working with dogs.

You can go there and click on "Join This Group."

You might have to make a Yahoo ID, to use the web features.

Mon, 14 Feb 2011 09:42:38 (PST)

**CarolW** · 02-14-2011, 10:47 AM

Re: Dog Fight

Gosh; I'm always forgetting stuff and having to add it!

You're NOT completely inept. This sort of thing happens in many dog-families, and the emergence of such situations can take anybody by surprise. Probably people on the group I referred you to can suggest some ideas for easing the relationship between Newman and Pip, though none is likely to remove all antagonism, which is why it's a good idea to keep the dogs separated.

It's good that now you're aware of the possibilities.

Mon, 14 Feb 2011 09:46:39 (PST)

**pgcor** · 02-14-2011, 12:11 PM

Re: Dog Fight

Thanks Bonnie and Carol -

I have to say - I am NOT good at dog training - I think that's obvious from not being able to test Pip to now this problem. The problem has always been jealousy between the dogs - from the moment I adopted Newman almost 5 years ago.

Pip is a very dominant dog and, I hate to admit this, but has bitten me several times - one that required a trip to the Doctor. That happened trying to break the two dogs up.

Pip has been the aggressor and Newman has virtually ignored him. I have no idea what happened on Friday that was different from any other day. Maybe Newman just go tired of being "pushed around" so to speak? Who knows.

I just have to say that I am not enjoying dog ownership at this time - and I have never in my life thought that would ever happen.

I will figure out a way to coexist - but I'm extremely fed up with the changes I've had to make to accommodate these dogs - and for the amount of time I've invested in dog training.

The last dog trainer I went to said "there's bite in that one" - referring to Pip. He didn't feel Newman was an aggressive dog. But Newman has always groweled at both my husband and myself when we tell him to get off the couch or the bed, or really anything he doesn't want to do.

When we're home the dogs are together - I don't know if that's a mistake or not. But, I just don't see how we can live with them separated all the time.

I heard the groweling on Friday, but was getting ready for work so I couldn't run right out there. I just cannot believe I didn't see that bite until Sunday!!! Pip never even showed an irritation there. We did see Newman licking Pip's neck, but Newman always licks Pip's face and eyes so we didn't see that as unusual.

Sorry for this post being so long, but I guess I'm trying to come to terms with the fact, that I can't rescue every dog, just because I love dogs. I do love them, but have never had two aggressive dogs before and let me say this is HELL.

Thanks for listening!

**CarolW** · 02-14-2011, 01:53 PM

Re: Dog Fight

Pam - first, let me say you are NOT alone. Sometimes dogs take these dislikes to each other, and though 95% of the time they are okay together, that other 5% is serious trouble, with great heart-ache for the humans, not to mention the dogs.

If it were me, I would begin making a serious effort to look for another home for Newman. Lucky he was your second dog, as the first should, preferably, keep his original home.

In the last two decades and a bit more, great advances have been made - among a fairly small percentage of dog-trainers and behaviorists - learning more about dogs, their body language, its meaning, and how we can talk to dogs in their own (body) language.

That's how it came about that I could take Camellia, with confidence that I could bring her along so she didn't startle so easily all the time. Indeed, it took me six months (I've had her almost that long) to reduce her startling nearly to nothing. And I remain with her inability to get anywhere near another dog without going off into a bark-bark-bark session, which, of course, tends to drive other dogs away. That's the PURPOSE of her bark-bark-barking - it's her effort to drive ANY other dog away. Simply, she is afraid of other dogs.

I'd guess that's why Pip goes after Newman - with Newman close to twice his size, he's probably afraid of Newman, at least part of the time. Add the element of uncertainty - probably with some jealousy built-in (with Newman's jealousy added to that), and you reach the situation the two dogs are now in.

Almost universally, the solution to this kind of situation is to find another home for one of the dogs.

Here are some other links you might find helpful.

http://www.coherentdog.org/vek/stressdown.php

Pam - in your place, I'd get the book and the DVD (or video) on calming signals. You can actually USE these with your dogs.

Then also, remembering you need to take things with various grains of salt. there are other useful materials. Primarily, I'd suggest the book by Alexandra Semyonova, listed on this page:

http://www.coherentdog.org/links.php

Also, I'd visit the link on that page on "dominance in dogs":

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/

from which you can also read this page:

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

It will take you some time to acquire and read this stuff, but I believe you'll find it highly worth the effort.

Please keep in mind that around 60 to 80% of dog-trainers, also behaviorists, remain stuck in the dark-ages of viewing dogs as "wanting to be the boss," largely because it's hard for people to change their deeply embedded views. But those who have learned the more up-to-date stuff have been having great successes.

The woman who sold me Camellia can hardly believe the advances we've made in six months. I knew it was possible; it just requires some pretty accurate knowledge, and my willingness not to rush things. I don't absolutely assume Camellia will overcome her dislike for other dogs, but I WILL bet that she'll meet a few she'll enjoy (I'll have to be selective), and from there, over the years, she may greatly reduce her bark-bark-bark responses to ALL other dogs. I won't be asking her to LIVE with another dog, though.

You should be able to get the materials by Turid Rugaas from amazon.com, and the ones by Semyonova, from

www.nonlineardogs.com

Bet you'd find the materials very helpful - and your mind greatly eased.

It might take you months to place Newman, but would be highly worth doing, for his sake, as well as for yours and Pip's. If you make a private placement (as I've done in the past), you can probably stay in touch with Newman via the new owner. If you can't make a private placement, perhaps a rescue organization would help.

So, please try not to be too discouraged. I know the pain of it, myself, as I've made plenty of errors in the past, and had to place a dog in just this sort of way.

Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:48:53 (PST)

**pgcor** · 02-14-2011, 02:13 PM

Re: Dog Fight

Thank you for all the information Carol! I will review all of it. I joined the reactive dogs group too.

To be honest, I'm very upset right now and can't imagine having to give Newman away. My husband just adores that dog....

I really couldn't be more sad.

**HarrysMom** · 02-14-2011, 02:26 PM

Re: Dog Fight

Have you tried a dog behaviorist?

Yunhee

**CarolW** · 02-14-2011, 03:32 PM

Re: Dog Fight

Dog behaviorists vary greatly; it would be good if you could find a good one locally, and, Pam, from the Pos-4-ReactiveDogs list, you may be able to locate one who is really good. That would be worth doing.

I co-own that group, but haven't posted in the last couple of years; the other owners and moderators are excellent. Anyway, Pam, I saw you had joined the group.

Let me encourage you to post as soon as you can. Describe the problem. We will take it from there, and I'll try to join in to help support you, Pip and Newman (and your husband).

If you CAN keep the dogs apart WHILE YOU ARE BOTH OUT, that will help immensely. When one or both of you are home, we can help you learn how to handle things so the dogs don't get into another fight. You can probably allow them to be together when you are able to supervise - paying attention!

Let's take re-homing as an absolute very last resort, then.

There are lots of things you can do to ease tensions between the two dogs.

Was that the first time Pip got really bitten? I hope so! Was there only the one bite? I hope so! Any idea how deep it was?

No lacerations in addition to the bite? If so, maybe things can be worked out. If things get too tough, maybe you can find a really good friend who is skilled with dogs to take Newman just for a week or so, to give both Newman and Pip time to recover; that's one technique that can be useful.

Anyway, there are some more ideas.

You'll need to give some idea, on the list, of your location, so we could seek out somebody good to assist you.

Same as here, don't be afraid to write long posts. The more information, the better.

BIG hugs to you, to Newman, and to Pip.

Mon, 14 Feb 2011 14:30:14 (PST)

**pgcor** · 02-14-2011, 06:18 PM

Re: Dog Fight

Thank you so much Carol. Pip is separated from Newman when we're not around as we can't have Newman lick the wound. This is the first time Newman has bitten anyone. He's a complicated dog. Never bitten, but growls at us. Pip is very dominant and has bitten me. I'm not making excuses for him, but generally it's because of a dog fight and I've tried to intervene.

Pip bit Newman in the nose and Newman bit Pip in the neck, over a glove that Newman had - that's all I know.

I will post the details to the other site, and again thank you so much Carol.

Pam

**pgcor** · 02-14-2011, 06:23 PM

Re: Dog Fight

Yunhee- I live in Chicago and when I look up canine behaviorist, I just get dog trainers. In Chicago, I can't really trust what that means, as I have had my differences with them. Not to say I'm a great dog trainer, as that's obviously not true - but some of the advice I've been given just rubs me the wrong way. If you know what I mean? Hopefully I'll find someone on Carol's suggested site. This has really taken the wind out of my sails. But maybe it was a necessary thing and will stop me from anthropomorphising (sp?) them. Thank you so much for the suggestion, perhaps that will help.

**k9diabetes** · 02-15-2011, 01:18 AM

Re: Dog Fight

Hi Pam,

I'm really sorry to hear about the fight between Pip and Newman.

The fact that Newman's been growling leads me to believe that there has been a longstanding problem. Newman's been working his way up the aggression ladder and just never got pushed over his bite threshold before.

An excellent book that describes this process and also reinforces repeatedly that dogs who do cross the bite threshold aren't "bad" dogs is "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson.

She views the various triggers that lead to aggression as cumulative. So if there's only one trigger, a dog may not even growl. Two triggers and he growls. Three triggers might be enough to push him over the bite threshold.

So, for example, take a dog like our Jack. Jack is afraid of men and he's afraid of small items being tossed around in the hand and is especially afraid of those things combined with an agitated or aggressive mood.

Just as a simple example, let's say his bite threshold is at 9. His fear of men is a 2, his fear of items being tossed around in the hand is a 5, and his fear of an agitated or aggressive mood is a 4.

If he encounters only one of those things at a time, he's not likely to bite. But if he encounters a man in an agitated mood who is tossing something up and down in his hand - this has happened to Jack - those fear factors add together - 2 + 5 + 4 - that's 11 and that's well over his bite threshold.

Obviously, this is just a tool to use to understand it but it helps make clear what can lead a dog who has "only" growled before to bite now. The growl was a warning that he was threatened and it's only really luck that he never bit before.

I would do a couple of things...

1) I would have Newman checked over if he hasn't had a full blood panel or exam recently.

Some medical problems, including hypothyroid, can lead to aggression, as can pain. So it's always good to eliminate any medical causes.

2) I would read up as much as you can about fear and aggression.

"The Culture Clash" is an excellent book because it gives you a sense of how much anthropomorphizing can get us into trouble and what can lead to the kind of clash you just had. Some other good authors are Patricia McConnell - I like her little booklets tailored to specifica problems.

And our behaviorist for Jack is Sophia Yin, who has an excellent website and books and probably would respond to you individually if you were to contact her. www.drsophiayin.com. She travels and lectures extensively and might know someone very good in your area or could connect you with someone who does. She is strictly a positive-training person who got started in animal behavior because she had an aggressive dog as a young woman and she went through all of the horrible old-fashioned training methods. She has a good basic book but I also would look to contacting someone about your problems specifically.

3) I would get a behaviorist involved - just take enough time to find someone you feel comfortable working with.

You need someone who can accurately read Newman and Pip - not someone who is going to throw canned solutions at them. Identifying Newman's triggers will be part of the process. Local really good rescues may be able to recommend someone or the vet. Our local SPCAs - one in each county - both concentrate on positive training and we have taken several classes through them and through Sophia.

Jack is on Prozac and I have to tell you that it has made a WORLD of difference for him. There were some hurdles he just couldn't quite get over and the medication made it possible. He is still fearful of many things but his baseline anxiety level has decreased substantially and he has been able to bond with Jeff in a way that he couldn't do without it.

Natalie

**pgcor** · 02-15-2011, 07:21 AM

Re: Dog Fight

Thank you Natalie. I just sent Dr. Yin a message. I just recently finished her book "How to Behave So Your Dog Behaves." Obviously a little late.

Newman growls at everyone over nothing and has always done that since he was about 1 - 2 years old. We never could figure it out and that's one of the reason we took him to a dog trainer that was highly recommended by the rescue site.

I know I'm not the best person to judge, but I was uncomfortable with the trainer. He seemed "mean" to me and his dislike of Pip was palpable. I don't like that Natalie. Newman growled when we were there and he said that Newman was afraid of Pip, and that Pip was a tyrant. He also said I was at fault for creating this "monster".

Now, grant it, Pip is a handful, but he's not a monster. He's the alpha and in my opinion, Newman wants to be the alpha. They are both dominant dogs.

I have always let Pip go out the door first, fed him first, etc., and always treated him that way for fear that Newman would challenge him. I hope a behaviorist can help me sort this out, as I don't know what I've done wrong in this situation.

Just as an example, If my husband or I tell Newman to get off the couch, he will, but he slinks off growling. Pip will not listen at all and has to be picked up and put off. Pip will growl when you pick him up too but I've never felt threatened by him.

The emergency vet asked us if Newman was a Pit Bull mix. To be honest, I don't know? Does he look like that to you?

Like it makes any difference, huh?

**CarolW** · 02-15-2011, 08:01 AM

Re: Dog Fight

Dog trainers and behaviorists are like vets, only more so. By that, I mean, their knowledge varies greatly. Most people EXPECT people working professionally with dogs to be knowledgeable; some are, some not. The profession is working toward developing standards, but that is no assurance, even if someone HAS met the standards, that their knowledge is anything like really complete and accurate.

The setting of standards often falls BEHIND what is now known about dogs.

Tue, 15 Feb 2011 07:01:38 (PST)

**Soaphie & Sydney's Mom** · 02-15-2011, 10:23 AM

Re: Dog Fight

Pam - do you have a picture of Newman posted somewhere?

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