Baby Girl Passed on 2/27/16

[lab lover]

Re: Lab Lover

I gave her the chicken Wellness dog food this morning and she liked it much better - at 7am her reading was 393 and after feeding and shot around 11:30 she was 176 so hopefully we are getting there I don't feel so stressed out like I was - my friends in Miami, think I am nuts because none of them have a dog so they can't relate to what I am going through. Ida

[BaileyBear]

Re: Lab Lover

Very happy to hear she liked the new food and that 176 is beautiful!

I'm glad those Newman's biscuits are working so well for her, too. I found out they come in 2 sizes, so we have both now. He gets the larger heart as his "bedtime biscuit" and then I give him the smaller ones as post injection treats. Since the Newman's don't bring Bailey's BG up, I have a box of Milk Bones around as a "carb him up" treat before things like car rides.

[lab lover]

Re: Lab Lover

Very happy to hear she liked the new food and that 176 is beautiful!

I'm glad those Newman's biscuits are working so well for her, too. I found out they come in 2 sizes, so we have both now. He gets the larger heart as his "bedtime biscuit" and then I give him the smaller ones as post injection treats. Since the Newman's don't bring Bailey's BG up, I have a box of Milk Bones around as a "carb him up" treat before things like car rides.

Should I checked Baby after one of the small biscuits maybe a hr later to see if it brings her bg's up - I never thought about it because it is such a small biscuits is that how yu found out that they are ok for Bailey? Also, when we do take her for a ride she does drop lower & when we get home I check her and sometimes she will drop a 100 points depending how long the ride is so I guess I will keep the milk bones in house for that too. Thanks,Ida

[lab lover]

Baby's Readings for Fri

7:30 - 363
10:30 - 176
1:30 -128
3:30 -140
6:00pm -266
1am 372

I stayed up late so I thought I would checked her and see how she is doing sometimes she will have a low reading around 12 or 1 and some nights she has a high reading. What causes this I measured the food and same dose of insulin.
Tonight I opened a new bottle and I think I mixed it a little too much and I noticed some bubbles on the top - when I read the directions they said if there are bubbles or some froth it would interfere with the dosage - could that be why she is so high at 1am. Just wished I could reason this out in my mind I know she will never have a good reading everyday but, want to make sure I am doing everything right too. I also was checking the video of how to give an injection and to me it looks like you inject the needle in the part of skin you are pinching I always inject her right under it. I pulled the skin and pinch it up and inject it right into the flat skin area. Let me know if this is the wrong way of doing it. Thanks, for your help. Baby is so happy about the biscuits because we couldn't find any without a lot of carbs. She thanks you.

[peggy0]

Re: Baby's Readings for Fri

Hi Ida

I give Forbin his shot in the same place as you do. I think you are fine there. I assume when you 'mix' the insulin you are slowly rolling it between your hands, not shaking the bottle.

When forbins BG goes under 100, his readings are higher for the next couple of days. I believe the experts can explain how the body can detect a drop and pour glucose back in to help itself. Maybe that's what is happening here. Also, you didn't say when you gave the biscuits.

I think she's fine.

[lab lover]

Re: Baby's Readings for Fri

Hi Ida

I give Forbin his shot in the same place as you do. I think you are fine there. I assume when you 'mix' the insulin you are slowly rolling it between your hands, not shaking the bottle.

When forbins BG goes under 100, his readings are higher for the next couple of days. I believe the experts can explain how the body can detect a drop and pour glucose back in to help itself. Maybe that's what is happening here. Also, you didn't say when you gave the biscuits.

I think she's fine.

Hi Peggy,

I give Baby a biscuit after every shot and one before she goes too bed. I am being careful how I rolled the insulin bottle so not too get many air bubbles in the bottle and if I do I wait till they settled down before I draw the insulin. Take care and thanks for helping. Ida

[We Hope]

Re: Lab Lover

Ida,

You might have gotten some of the bubbles in the syringe. When that happens, the air takes the place of some of the insulin, so you get a little less than a full dose. If you do see bubbles in the syringe barrel, you can "shoot" the dose back into the vial and draw it again without harming the insulin.

When you roll the insulin to re-suspend it, put the vial between the palms of your hands and roll it back and forth between them. What you want to see happen to the insulin is that the vial becomes evenly cloudy. The "white stuff" you see is the insulin itself and you want that to be thoroughly mixed together with the suspension (clear liquid).

Since you just opened this vial last night, if you see that Baby's still running high today, I would take the insulin back to W-M and ask for a new vial--they should replace it without charge. There are times you get "bad" vials; when that happens, they don't do the job of lowering bg's properly.

This is what it looks like when you're giving a shot right by pulling up the skin. When you place the needle into the skin higher up, you run the risk of literally "shooting through" it.

Here you see what I mean. If the shot was given like this, the insulin would go into the air--not into the dog. See how much higher up the "tent" the needle is placed for the wrong way and how close to the base of the skin it is in the right one.

You also need to remember not to give the shot at the same place all the time because that can thicken the skin in that area; thicker skin doesn't absorb insulin very well and that can mean higher bg's. This is called rotating the injection site.

I always gave the morning shot on the right side and the evening one on the left. Doesn't matter if you do it mornings left and nights right, but it keeps you from injecting into the same place all the time.

After we had Caninsulin/Vetsulin, I followed their advice about giving the shots from the shoulders back to the tail but staying away from the spine. For me, having an area to "work" like this let me go up and down Lucky's body with the shots, making sure I didn't get them into the same spot along it.

If you're staying with the scruff or anyplace else, if you make sure that the next shot you give is the space of two fingers laid on Baby's skin apart from where you gave the last one, you won't be giving shots in the same area to make the skin thicker (less insulin absorption).

OK--there are more variables than we can count which influence someone's bg's--people or pets. Levels of hormones in the body rise and fall--it's part of the way it works. If you took blood every day and did full panels on it, you would see that the levels of things like cortisol vary a little. If you're healthy, they would be within the normal range for it, but they wouldn't be the same each day, just as different things happen in the course of daily living. All of that can influence one's bg's.

Everyone has his or her own personal body "definition" of what low is, and what will trigger the counter-regulatory hormones to signal for glucose to be released into the body. You can have a low and not go into rebound, but this rebound explanation is also a good one for what happens when you get to a low that triggers these hormones to act.

http://www.vetsulin.com/vet/Monitoring_Somogyi.aspx

An insulin dose that is too high may bring about the Somogyi effect or rebound hyperglycemia. This is produced because blood glucose concentrations fall too rapidly. The moment that the Somogyi effect is triggered is very individual – it is a life-saving response.

The body attempts to counteract the decline in the blood glucose concentration through a chain of reactions:

The blood glucose concentration falls rapidly, or approaches hypoglycemia (blood glucose concentrations of less than 50 mg/dL [5 mmol/L]) following the injection of insulin. The animal becomes hungry and either restless or lethargic.

In response to a declining blood glucose concentration in the CNS, adrenaline and subsequently cortisol, glucagon and growth hormone are released.
These hormones bring about an increase in the blood glucose concentration (through gluconeogenesis, release of glucose from hepatic glycogen and increased peripheral resistance to insulin).

The resultant hyperglycemia produces polyuria and polydipsia. This can easily be misinterpreted as caused by an inadequate insulin dose.

We had a little guy on another board who would have problems every time his bg's went down to 85. When this happened, he would have all the symptoms of a hypo but when you checked his bg's, they would not be in hypo/low range. His diabetes was very well controlled and easy to control; the decision for him was to slightly decrease his insulin so that while he remained in very good bg levels, it kept him away from getting close to 85.

On the other hand, we had Lucky, who stayed low and tight and would be at 85 about 8-10 hours after breakfast and morning insulin, who was feeling great at that level and never had a hypo.

Nobody with diabetes can make today a photocopy of yesterday or duplicate today for tomorrow. There's always going to be some variance, but when the things you aren't happy to see keep appearing as a pattern, that's when you need to think about making changes. People who start "chasing" numbers wind up in trouble because they're always trying to "fix" something that really isn't broken.

Kathy

[lab lover]

Re: Lab Lover

Ida,

You might have gotten some of the bubbles in the syringe. When that happens, the air takes the place of some of the insulin, so you get a little less than a full dose. If you do see bubbles in the syringe barrel, you can "shoot" the dose back into the vial and draw it again without harming the insulin.

When you roll the insulin to re-suspend it, put the vial between the palms of your hands and roll it back and forth between them. What you want to see happen to the insulin is that the vial becomes evenly cloudy. The "white stuff" you see is the insulin itself and you want that to be thoroughly mixed together with the suspension (clear liquid).

Since you just opened this vial last night, if you see that Baby's still running high today, I would take the insulin back to W-M and ask for a new vial--they should replace it without charge. There are times you get "bad" vials; when that happens, they don't do the job of lowering bg's properly.

This is what it looks like when you're giving a shot right by pulling up the skin. When you place the needle into the skin higher up, you run the risk of literally "shooting through" it.

Here you see what I mean. If the shot was given like this, the insulin would go into the air--not into the dog. See how much higher up the "tent" the needle is placed for the wrong way and how close to the base of the skin it is in the right one.

You also need to remember not to give the shot at the same place all the time because that can thicken the skin in that area; thicker skin doesn't absorb insulin very well and that can mean higher bg's. This is called rotating the injection site.

I always gave the morning shot on the right side and the evening one on the left. Doesn't matter if you do it mornings left and nights right, but it keeps you from injecting into the same place all the time.

After we had Caninsulin/Vetsulin, I followed their advice about giving the shots from the shoulders back to the tail but staying away from the spine. For me, having an area to "work" like this let me go up and down Lucky's body with the shots, making sure I didn't get them into the same spot along it.

If you're staying with the scruff or anyplace else, if you make sure that the next shot you give is the space of two fingers laid on Baby's skin apart from where you gave the last one, you won't be giving shots in the same area to make the skin thicker (less insulin absorption).

OK--there are more variables than we can count which influence someone's bg's--people or pets. Levels of hormones in the body rise and fall--it's part of the way it works. If you took blood every day and did full panels on it, you would see that the levels of things like cortisol vary a little. If you're healthy, they would be within the normal range for it, but they wouldn't be the same each day, just as different things happen in the course of daily living. All of that can influence one's bg's.

Everyone has his or her own personal body "definition" of what low is, and what will trigger the counter-regulatory hormones to signal for glucose to be released into the body. You can have a low and not go into rebound, but this rebound explanation is also a good one for what happens when you get to a low that triggers these hormones to act.

http://www.vetsulin.com/vet/Monitoring_Somogyi.aspx

An insulin dose that is too high may bring about the Somogyi effect or rebound hyperglycemia. This is produced because blood glucose concentrations fall too rapidly. The moment that the Somogyi effect is triggered is very individual – it is a life-saving response.

The body attempts to counteract the decline in the blood glucose concentration through a chain of reactions:

The blood glucose concentration falls rapidly, or approaches hypoglycemia (blood glucose concentrations of less than 50 mg/dL [5 mmol/L]) following the injection of insulin. The animal becomes hungry and either restless or lethargic.

In response to a declining blood glucose concentration in the CNS, adrenaline and subsequently cortisol, glucagon and growth hormone are released.
These hormones bring about an increase in the blood glucose concentration (through gluconeogenesis, release of glucose from hepatic glycogen and increased peripheral resistance to insulin).

The resultant hyperglycemia produces polyuria and polydipsia. This can easily be misinterpreted as caused by an inadequate insulin dose.

We had a little guy on another board who would have problems every time his bg's went down to 85. When this happened, he would have all the symptoms of a hypo but when you checked his bg's, they would not be in hypo/low range. His diabetes was very well controlled and easy to control; the decision for him was to slightly decrease his insulin so that while he remained in very good bg levels, it kept him away from getting close to 85.

On the other hand, we had Lucky, who stayed low and tight and would be at 85 about 8-10 hours after breakfast and morning insulin, who was feeling great at that level and never had a hypo.

Nobody with diabetes can make today a photocopy of yesterday or duplicate today for tomorrow. There's always going to be some variance, but when the things you aren't happy to see keep appearing as a pattern, that's when you need to think about making changes. People who start "chasing" numbers wind up in trouble because they're always trying to "fix" something that really isn't broken.

Kathy

Thanks Kathy this picture really helps me her skin is so thick and then with the hair I just want to make sure I am doing it properly. It is not thick from the shots she is just overweight at least 10 pounds. Injecting her on the side of her chest is the easiest for me. When I tried to do the flank she flinches. I was reading about Somogyi effect yesterday so much more too learn never knew about the insulin not working right and having a bad vial I always thought if it is cloudy and white it is ok.

I just checked her now she was 286 at 7am, 336 -9:30am and dropped to 104 at 12:30. I will checked her in another 1hr too see if she keeps dropping . She should have started to get lower bg's after the 7am right - not go higher and than start dropping lower. So if I am understanding correctly it could be, somogyi, not injecting correctly, or a bad vial of insulin, I always make sure before I inject her the insulin is cloudy and white. On Friday evening she was 266 at 6pm then went up to 372 at 1am - I also wonder when you get near the end of the insulin vial it just didn't looked as white too me as when you first used it. I still had some left but, didn't used it and opened the new bottle. I'll post how she did the rest of the day still so much too learned.

On the Newman biscuit I give her only the small ones - not the big ones and she does like the new can food better. This am she ate mostly all her food but, did leave a little we just couldn't get her too eat it - I wasn't worried because she ate more than half of her dish of food. Thanks Kathy again it just takes time for me too sink everything in my brain.

[peggy0]

Re: Lab Lover

if you injected her at 7, the peak for that shot is about 3/5 hours later, not immediately

[We Hope]

Re: Lab Lover

This am she ate mostly all her food but, did leave a little we just couldn't get her too eat it - I wasn't worried because she ate more than half of her dish of food.

Ida,

This might be why Baby is running low; the dose of insulin you give her is based on two things--her body weight and the amount of food she eats. When you have more insulin than food, you can get lows; when you have more food than insulin, you get highs. You might want to ask your vet about how much insulin he wants Baby to have if she doesn't eat all of a meal. He can then tell you what his preferences are.

Everyone goes higher after eating. The difference between someone who doesn't have diabetes and someone who does is that the person who doesn't have it has a working pancreas that just sends out more insulin to handle the food. Those with diabetes who use insulin have to inject it, so they need to plan ahead for how much food and how much insulin.

Insulin secretion in non-diabetic human. The peaks represent the additional insulin released at meal times, called post-prandial, or after-meal insulin. Here you see how the non-diabetic body automatically calculates how much insulin is needed to handle the extra glucose generated by the meal and releases it. Within 2 hours after a meal has been eaten, insulin secretion in a non-diabetic reverts back to the lower, or basal level (amount of insulin necessary for the body's needs without considering the processing of food) shown as the low points in the graph.

So here you see how someone who doesn't have diabetes is able to automatically have the body send out the extra insulin to take care of any food that's eaten.

When you get near the end of an insulin vial, it can lose its potency. It can also lose it when the open vial has been around too long. Some people replace their insulin every month, while others keep using it until they notice it's not taking care of their bg's like it used to.

Some vials don't look right--you can tell there's something wrong with them--but others look fine and don't work properly. When you see anything about a vial of insulin that doesn't seem right to you, don't use it--get another. One of the first things we suggest when bg's are running high is to try a new vial of insulin and often that's what's wrong.

Kathy

[lab lover]

Re: Lab Lover

Ida,

This might be why Baby is running low; the dose of insulin you give her is based on two things--her body weight and the amount of food she eats. When you have more insulin than food, you can get lows; when you have more food than insulin, you get highs. You might want to ask your vet about how much insulin he wants Baby to have if she doesn't eat all of a meal. He can then tell you what his preferences are.

Everyone goes higher after eating. The difference between someone who doesn't have diabetes and someone who does is that the person who doesn't have it has a working pancreas that just sends out more insulin to handle the food. Those with diabetes who use insulin have to inject it, so they need to plan ahead for how much food and how much insulin.

Insulin secretion in non-diabetic human. The peaks represent the additional insulin released at meal times, called post-prandial, or after-meal insulin. Here you see how the non-diabetic body automatically calculates how much insulin is needed to handle the extra glucose generated by the meal and releases it. Within 2 hours after a meal has been eaten, insulin secretion in a non-diabetic reverts back to the lower, or basal level (amount of insulin necessary for the body's needs without considering the processing of food) shown as the low points in the graph.

So here you see how someone who doesn't have diabetes is able to automatically have the body send out the extra insulin to take care of any food that's eaten.

When you get near the end of an insulin vial, it can lose its potency. It can also lose it when the open vial has been around too long. Some people replace their insulin every month, while others keep using it until they notice it's not taking care of their bg's like it used to.

Some vials don't look right--you can tell there's something wrong with them--but others look fine and don't work properly. When you see anything about a vial of insulin that doesn't seem right to you, don't use it--get another. One of the first things we suggest when bg's are running high is to try a new vial of insulin and often that's what's wrong.

Kathy

I just called Walmart and right now they don't have any in will be getting some in by the afternoon or they will tell me when they will have it. If the one near my house doesn't have it this afternoon I will have them checked another further away. I don't know if they will replaced it I told the Pharmacist the bottle is very white and he said there shouldn't be anything wrong with it - so I might have too pay for another one. (I'll bring it in with me)

Her readings for today

286 7am
336 10:30am
104 12:30
78 1:30 I gave her a couple of Newman small biscuits and it brought her
152 3:30 up.

The vet is closed by 1pm today so I couldn't called him but, this is the third time she went this low in a wk.

I also, forgot too asked does it matter when you walked them s/b before feeding and shot or after,does that effect the levels in anyway she always wants to walk in the am when she is on a empty stomach so I wonder if this makes a difference too. I would like to get her in a routine of 3 short walks a day as soon as the weather is nice here - today is nice by Tues we will have snow again - so you never know from day to day how the weather is going to be in Tn

Right now we are feeding her Solid Gold dry , 3/4 cup, 1/2 can Wellness chicken, and Turkey dog food, change off one day chicken, one day turkey, 1/2 cup of string beans, 1/2 teasp Metamucil 2 x a day for more fiber, (per vet) 1/2 cup of chopped of chicken. The dog food is is almost like Solid Gold but, they were out when I went to buy it so I bought the closest ingredients I could too it and she likes it better. living in a small town they do not stocked items liked they do in Miami, but I didn't want too waste the food if in a week the vet decides to changed it - so I buy six at a time -the cans are running 1.68 a can. I wished she could be off of the antibotic but she has to take them for another 2 wks - I asked the vet if that would effect her readings and they feel liked it shouldn't make any difference in the readings? I don't understand that because everything I read on the internet about any medications could throw off their levels. Hope I did the right thing about giving her the biscuits instead of Karo. At least I didn't panic like a nut. Right

[lab lover]

Re: Lab Lover

Making a note to asked the vet about dosage too if she does not eat all of her food. Thank you.

[We Hope]

Re: Lab Lover

Ida,

I see that Baby went to 78--there's nothing wrong with your insulin; when the insulin's not right, you have highs even though you're doing everything else right. I believe she went to 78 because she didn't eat all of her breakfast this morning but got enough insulin as if she did.

Today we know why Baby went low--more insulin than food and you did the perfect thing by giving her the biscuits!

Some medicines can affect diabetes--but when they tell you this, a lot of times it doesn't mean that it will affect everyone with diabetes who has to take the medicine.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Medication_warnings

The time NOT to walk a diabetic dog is around the time their insulin is working hardest, or peaking. Since exercise normally lowers blood glucose, combining that with the time the insulin's at its strongest could mean going too low or in a hypo.

So this time, we sure DO know where Baby got that 78--from not eating all of her breakfast!

Kathy

[BaileyBear]

Re: Lab Lover

Should I checked Baby after one of the small biscuits maybe a hr later to see if it brings her bg's up - I never thought about it because it is such a small biscuits is that how yu found out that they are ok for Bailey? Also, when we do take her for a ride she does drop lower & when we get home I check her and sometimes she will drop a 100 points depending how long the ride is so I guess I will keep the milk bones in house for that too. Thanks,Ida

We have the small and the larger size heart biscuits now. He gets the smaller ones after each injection and then the larger one as a bedtime treat. We had previously been giving him a small Milk Bone (my parents had bought him a big box for Christmas, lol) at bedtime. This was when he was still having huge post-meal spikes at bedtime. I knew part of that was his meal still lingering, but I wanted to know how much of it may be the biscuit. So I tested him before his biscuit and then a 1/2 hour and an hour later for a few days in a row. Each time he went up about 100 points, so we had our answer.

When we tried the Newman's, I did the same thing and his numbers didn't budge - sometimes they even went down a little. That's why I don't use them to increase his BG when he is lower than I'd like. That's when I give him the Milk Bones, since I know he will go up after one of those.

Bailey has the same experience as Baby after car rides. He drops a lot, depending on what number he starts with. When he was still in higher numbers, he would drop at least 100 points. But the lower he starts at, the less of a drop he has. He went to the vet this week and ended up there for over 90 minutes because they were really busy. He got to play with a lot of other dogs and he gets very excited when he sees his vet...loves the guy. Had he started higher, he could have easily dropped 100+ pts. But he was in the 90's when he went and only dropped about 10 points when I checked him at home.

If you test Baby before & after the Newman's (and before & after whatever other treats you may want to give her, like Milk Bones) it should give you an idea of how much, if at all, it raises her BG. The smaller size are pretty darn small, so it might not give her much of a bump. But every dog is different and Bailey seems especially sensitive to corn and wheat. The Newman's don't contain corn or wheat, so that's why I think he does so well with them. The Milk Bones have both, so consequently he sees a big bump in BG.

I know a lot of this still feels very overwhelming for you, but you are still in the process of getting Baby consistent and finding out what makes her go up and what makes her go down. That's a lot of work in the beginning - lots of testing, note taking, and looking for consistent patterns. But once you gather all of that information, it makes the rest easier. You'll eventually learn what works best for Baby in different situations. Once her meals are consistently the same and you have the insulin dose worked, then you'll be able to fine tune the food, treats, and activity as well.

[lab lover]

Re: Lab Lover

Ida,

I see that Baby went to 78--there's nothing wrong with your insulin; when the insulin's not right, you have highs even though you're doing everything else right. I believe she went to 78 because she didn't eat all of her breakfast this morning but got enough insulin as if she did.

Today we know why Baby went low--more insulin than food and you did the perfect thing by giving her the biscuits!

Some medicines can affect diabetes--but when they tell you this, a lot of times it doesn't mean that it will affect everyone with diabetes who has to take the medicine.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Medication_warnings

The time NOT to walk a diabetic dog is around the time their insulin is working hardest, or peaking. Since exercise normally lowers blood glucose, combining that with the time the insulin's at its strongest could mean going too low or in a hypo.

So this time, we sure DO know where Baby got that 78--from not eating all of her breakfast!

Kathy

Thanks Kathy, at least now I don't have too drive 35 miles one way to another Walmart to get another vial -I will get a back up one on Mon or Tues when the Walmart near me gets them in - Hope my spoiled doggy eats all her food in pm if anyone saw us sitting on the floor begging this dog they would say we have completely lost it!! Thanks for all the info. Ida